Tuesday, December 13, 2011

Tuning the professional abilities of fighters

Given the amount of criticism to my first attempt at special abilities for fighters as described in todays previous post I'm trying harder :-) How about the following ability list for fighters:
  • 30% PV bonus at level 1 from all helmets, armor, girdles, boots, cloaks and gauntlets when selected as the main profession or 10% otherwise
  • 50% dodge DV bonus at level 3
  • all helmets, armor, girdles, boots, cloaks and gauntlets reduce carrying capacity only by one-half at level 6
  • ignore negative DV modifiers from armor at level 10
  • powerful bash attack at level 15
  • reduce the required number of weapon skill marks for all weapon skills by 15% at level 21
  • blazing whirlwind attack at level 28
  • +12 strength at level 36
  • +30 DV at level 50
  • +200 maximum hit points at level 75
  • +20% to all critical hit probabilities at level 100

Now I would like to see suggestions for the special abilities of thieves and tinkers before I start to ashame myself once more ;-)


  1. For thieves :
    Bonus to trap sense / trap disarm / trap evade
    Poison Protection / Poison immunity / Poison mastery
    Quick reaction (a lucky roll that can prevent or reduce dmg from specific source)
    Pick Pocket bonus
    Dex bonus
    Speed bonus

    For the thinker I have no idea.

  2. Those're more of wet dreams than criticism, in my opinion. About the shame - I, for once, feel it when I press the "submit" button.
    This list is much better, although 21st level ability means just a little less grinding. is it possible to increase weapon group bonuses by the % instead of reducing marks needed to levelup the skill?

    For thieves:
    1. Stat boosts for cloaks, light blades and light clubs. Having one light blade equipped with second hand free should incur at least a hefty to-hit bonus.
    2. +% of magicfind when pickpocketing. +gold when pickpocketing.
    3. Ability to deal "nonlethal" damage to a creature with a blunt weapon - for the people who don't want to kill innocents and don't have teleport and invisibility. For example the game may mark the creature killed with nonlethal as "will respawn on game reload if corpse not destroyed".
    4. Having the game make from one to a few pickpocket rolls, based on your level compared to the target creature's level, and choosing "the best one" as your result. For example, you'd roll once against an opponent higher than your level, but twice against an opponent of your level - allowing you to ignore one failed roll and possibly get better stuff. And you can rummage through peasants' pockets for, say, 5-6 rolls at a time.
    5. Faster progression of pickpocket/stealth/lockpicking than other professions in possession of these skills. Maybe even raw skill bonuses. Stats increase going into Dex, Speed.
    6. Carrying capacity - thieves need to steal a lot of things!
    7. Increased penalties to spot a hiding thief proportional to the distance to her/bonus to stealth when adjacent to or occupying spaces with a terrain feature.
    8. Allowing thieves to craft special one-shot blinding weapons, from finely ground rock dust to pepperspray and corrosive alchemical solutions. They can work as potions with unique recipies, and be thrown at creatures (or drinked.. "You feel bad from the dry dust you tried to eat, spitting a lot and thinking on why you did it.", "Your throat is on fire..." for peppersprays, etc).
    9. Traps stop triggering on thieves at higher levels, due to them being able to fool man'made machinery, and they receive a bonus against golems and other mechanical creatures for the same reason.
    10. If anyone - thieves should get a chance to inflict bleeding. With bladed weapons of course.
    11. Thieves stop being pickpocketed or attacked by criminals from a point, having an authority of a high-level thief, hehe. Maybe criminals will even fight on thief's side if paid a little.

    I have no idea of what to do with tinkers yet..

  3. How about tinkers can play an instrument and nearby people might give them some money - they have to pass a skill check of course!

    Maybe they can get better prices in shops.

    I guess they should have enhanced survival skill - maybe they can always gather food on certain map tiles?

    What if they can charm animals or take them as followers. Animals should be more likely to be friendly. Perhaps at higher levels they could charm more exotic creatures.. dragons!

    Big crafting bonuses of course! Weapon repair and enhancement.

    Boosts for herbalism, gardening?

  4. I would live to see tinkers have the ability to make Golem
    Like creatures. These could start off fairly weak, but give the Tinker an edge in combat as long as they have time to prepare/repair their creations between fights.

  5. Perhaps they could develop Macgyver like ingenuity, enabling them to construct things even if they are missing a required material (taking slightly longer as a penalty).

    As the player increases in level they could unlock new plans that are not available through any other means - effectively they would be 'inventing' the item themselves. Maybe you could even have the potential inventions influenced by the players experiences - so they'd be more likely to invent an aqualung if they had nearly drowned previously.

    Really like the golem construction idea, but since they already exist within the game, perhaps they should be available through a construction plan rather than as an invention of the player.

    At some point they should be able to work out how to build any item that they've seen without needing a plan. Or perhaps that could be tiered so even at relatively low levels they can work out how to build simple objects once they've seen one in the flesh.

  6. For fighters, I'm not sure what the level 6 ability means? Does that mean any worn equipment only weighs half as much as normal? If so, I really like that one!

    I really like all of the abilities thieves get in ADOM! I want to put them all up for submission. They were, of course:
    Lvl 6 - automatically search each turn
    lvl 12 - more powerful backstab
    lvl 18 - better at stealing from shops
    lvl 25 - critical hits stun
    lvl 32 - can pickpocket much better stuff
    lvl 40 - +20 speed
    lvl 50 - invisible if standing next to a wall.

    For other, new abilities, I would like to see...
    - Enemies only have 80-90% of their PV against thief attacks
    - I want to see high level thieves seriously be able to pickpocket a fighters platemail, sword and everything right off him!
    - Lightfooted - faster movement speed
    - Theives have a better chance of being able to react to and evade area effect attacks, such as fireballs or firegems.
    - greater defense against disarm/pickpocket and related attacks from enemies
    - the weight of theivery equipment reduced by half (lockpicks, keys, trap making kits etc)
    - some sort of social ability (more success talking/convincing villagers, better prices at shops, larger selection at black market shops, automatic entry to black market shops, etc)

    Some of these are pretty minor suggestions I'm giving - for example, you'd be disappointed if you reached level 15 and your class bonus was only "half-weight thief equipment", but again, I'm still in favor of a lot more, minor level bonuses instead of just a few major bonuses ;-)

    For tinker - I honestly don't know. Like the commoner, I'm happy to just leave this one up to you to decide :D

  7. Regarding multi-classing (slightly off-topic I know), how about entering the game at level 3 or 4 for your starting class. The 'special abilities' ladder also started at L3 or 4. This reflects real-life whereby you would already have some experience in your occupation but a lot less in an unrelated one. Skills raised in other classes start at level 1, as you start as a novice, so you don't get the special abilities until you reach 3 or 4. This prevents people gaining level 1 bonuses on the various classes as if they had chosen it as their starting class (such as double carrying capacity for commoners) and also avoids an odd situation where a Level 50 fighter (who started as something else) is a worse fighter than someone that is only a low level fighter but started that way.

  8. Seems like most of the suggestions for thief seem to have been made already. My twopence is:

    Hide ability. When next to wall, tree (or something similar), ability can be activated so only creatures stood next to you can see you. Automatically deactivates when you move.

    Tinkers are tougher:

    Smithing advances is the obvious one.

    Seaming - Ability to make material objects out of other material objects, e.g. hat out of clothes, leather boots out of leather armour. Also, the ability to improve material objects.

    Repair - can repair any broken object (but still needs forge, anvil and hammer for metallic objects)

    Disarm trap bonuses

    Pick Lock bonuses

    Other possibles include concentration bonuses or dexterity bonuses

  9. If the tinker cant make a steampunk styled mech-suit at some point I'm quitting!

    Joking of cause, but it would be nice to see some worn tinker items, goggles and the like perhaps - I feel their main weakness will be that unless they have prep time they'll be very much disadvantaged compared to other professions which have more innate abilities.

  10. For thieves, how about the ability to see in the dark. Have it start with being able to clearly see what's in the square next to you and seeing an amorphous *something* 2 squares away - in other words, you can see well enough to tell that there's something there but not what. Maybe see it as small monster, humanoid, large monster. The distances increase as the PC levels, up to maybe a max of half of normal vision. This would also be a good ability for assassins, and maybe as a racial power for Dark Elves and Dwarves. For PCs that get darksight from both race and class, calculate the distance by taking the higher sight distance + 1/2 of the lower.

    For Tinkers, a couple of ideas: First, a gradually increasing Alchemy skill to the point where they have a recipe for literally *any* potion available in the game. Very abuseable, yes. Note that I said a recipe - I didn't say anything about how available the ingredients are, or how easy to prepare they would be. There might be a high-level quest for the Tinker's guild to retrieve the Legendary Potion WD-42. You bring it back to the guild, they take most of it and leave you with a small vial containing only 10 drops. Your recipe for "Potion of Ultimate Overkill" calls for 8.

    Or suppose your recipe for "Potion of Lesser Overkill" requires fresh female Titan's blood. By fresh, I mean *Fresh*, as in, better be standing next to her with your Alchemy equipment ready when she hits the floor. Oh, and it takes some time to mix the potion and if you are interrupted before you finish, there's a good chance things are going to go *Boom*.

    Actually, now that I think about it, it might make more sense for there to be a "Master Alchemy Book" only available to high-level Tinkers, rather than have it as a class ability.

    Another Tinker idea I had: I liked the suggestion of crafting Golems, but how about Tinkers being able to instruct them to do more than just follow you around and fight. Suppose you could instruct your Golem to gather resources for you. Of course, the Golems would mindlessly follow orders, so they wouldn't defend themselves when attacked, and you'd have to watch them a bit to make sure the Golem you sent out to gather stone doesn't end up packing your entire workshop full.

    Tinkers could take advantage of dungeon features to power static inventions. Build a water-wheel next to a river, or tap into a steam geyser, or build a boiler next to lava. Once you have a source of power, you can build inventions that utilize that power, like a sentry gun, or a charging station for your steampunk mech-suit ;) (Love that idea, btw)

    I like the idea of Tinkers having a workshop - a home base where they do most of their work. Of course, that means lots of travel back and forth to work, so maybe an early invention could be some sort of teleportation hub. You can build temporary portals that will allow a 2-way trip - home to build something, then back to where you left. If you have a power source, you can eventually build a permanent portal. Look for a forest near a river so you can have a ready source of wood.

    One last idea: the Arcane Tinker. A Wizard can take a few levels of Tinker and craft magical items.

    For Tinkers, the first thing that popped into my head was, "Any sufficiently advanced Tinkering is indistinguishable from Magic," and the next thing that popped into my head was, "Oh, no." I want the classes to actually play differently, actually *do* different things rather than simply *be* different. That's why I really prefer class abilities that actually grant new abilities, rather than simply +X to *stat* or X% better at *something*

  11. How about introducing an element of chance into the equation?

    Maybe 40% PV bonus at level 1 from one (randomly determined) of the following: helmets, armor, girdles, boots, cloaks and gauntlets. Another 40% bonus could then be included later on.

  12. Ideas for tinker abilities:
    Resistance to weather effects
    Resistance to fire/acid/electricity
    Bonus to appraisal skill (and arguably haggling, considering some of the car mechanics I've met...)
    Bonus to perception/willpower/intelligence/dexterity
    Reduction in tinkering time
    Reduction in building material requirements
    Addition of abilities to build funky useful items, of course ;)

  13. Thieves:
    Since JADE is supposed to have monster inventories, thieves are the logical choice to take advantage of that.

    Possible tree based on that:
    basic: able to see entire inventory of a monster
    advanced: able to judge quality/value of a monster's stuff (some sort of appraising check when 'L'ooking at a monster)
    high-end: able to identify what monster is wielding/wearing

    This should also apply to things found on the ground. After all, what good is a thief who can't tell good stuff from junk? Maybe also add detect status at high level.

    Related: an ability to try to steal a specific item.

    Also, in JADE a thief could really become what thief is supposed to be. Sneaking/stealing/stabbing rather than regular combat. As such, abilities should make such gameplay style viable.
    -any bonus to stealth/pickpocket/dex/etc
    -being able to recognize if a monster is aware of him
    -short distance controlled blink (blink in, steal, blink out)
    -being able to detect a monster's LOS
    -bonus to invisibility (being more invisible than invisible ;))


  14. I like this fighter list better than the last one, but it'd still be nice to see more active abilities. Caster types in ADOM get way more options than fighters, and it'd be nice to see melee get some more tactical depth instead of boring passive stat boosts. Perhaps some sort of charge attack to close distance with ranged opponents?

    I'd recommend checking out Caves of Qud or Incursion for ideas - both are roguelikes that have done really well in adding depth to melee classes.

  15. I too like the idea of being able to build an exoskeleton for tinkers. Further abilities would allow certain add-ons and upgrades to it, like a power source to recharge your pp, bonus to strength/carrying capacity, missiles, overheating that deals damage to those who touch you and so on. It could also speed up the construction ability when worn, but slow you down otherwise (it's bulky). Would it require an external powersource of its own, like rechargeable (long-lasting!) batteries or just run on pp? I'd say it should run on something and preferably batteries, some magical crystals and/or spells.