Tuesday, December 13, 2011

Professional abilities for fighters and more

Here we go with the list of professional abilities for fighters. It is modified from the one posted yesterday for commoners due to a very good idea provided by KSennie that I liked so much that I implemented it right away (BTW, KSennie send me your real name for the JADE credits to creator(at)ancientdomainsofmystery.com and mention this): First level abilities now will be differentiated according to whether the given profession is your main profession (the one selected initially) or not (another one selected later on with multi-classing). The first level abilities for multi-classed professions are much weaker than the one for the main profession (so you get something but a lot less). For commoners this means that e.g. carrying capacity will be 200% standard when selecting commoner as a main profession and only 120% standard when selecting it as a later profession. So here we go with the abilities for fighters:

  • 40% PV bonus at level 1 from all helmets, armor, girdles, boots, cloaks and gauntlets when selected as the main profession or 10% otherwise
  • 50% dodge DV bonus at level 3
  • +3 to strength at level 6
  • +3 to dexterity at level 10
  • powerful bash attack at level 15
  • blazing whirlwind attack at level 21
  • +6 strength at level 28
  • +6 toughness at level 36
  • +10 PV at level 50
  • +20% to all critical hit probabilities at level 75
  • +25 DV at level 100
Let me know what you think!


  1. Attribute and stat bonuses are nice, but they don't really seem like an "ability". Maybe professional abilities could contain more active/passive powers. Or is it just the nature of meele professions to have that much attribute/stat bonuses ?

  2. How about one or two funkier intrinsics?

    For example, high-level fighters could be immune to new fear or confusion effects by hostiles as long as they are visible.

    You know, to indicate a level of battle-hardiness and level-headedness in combat situations.

  3. Those are a bit generic. Together with the commoner ones, I'm not sure that your professions will end up playing very distinctly.

    Is there some parallel track that adds spice to the professions? This stuff seems like "under the hood" numbers rather than presenting a reason to choose a specific profession.

    The high level ones in particular need beefing up, otherwise people will just multiclass once the abilities start getting too spaced out (~28)

  4. I think the extra 10 PV at level 50 are a little underwhelming, considering that you already get a +40% increase for each armor piece starting at level 1. Depending on the armor you'll find the +10 PV won't make such a huge difference and your wording doesn't imply if the level 1 ability stacks on that one.

    I'm missing some of the cooler abilities like disarms or forced enemy movement, maybe like 'k'icking enemies into walls, traps, pools with a 100% success chance for human-sized or smaller opponents and reducing it for sizes above that?

    Some inherent resistance to those annoying combat maneuvers from ratling duelists would also be nice :)

    I guess inherent damage bonusses are the domain of barbarians and/beastmasters?

  5. I agree with everyone saying that these seem a bit generic. Stat boosts especially are rather underwhelming, since they tend to have no long-term effect given that higher stats are hard to increase further.

    For fighters, I'd prefer to see things like bonuses when fighting humanoids, increased learning speed for weapon skills, and abilities to use offensive and defensive tactics more effectively than other classes.

    I do like the approach to level 1 talents though, but would offer a refinement. I think it should be possible for secondary professions to reach the primary skill level, but not at level 1. It seems silly that if I have a commoner who dual-classes and ends up becoming a level 50 fighter that she still won't be as good at using armour as a level 1 pure fighter.

    So, for instance, it might be that when you become a level 3 fighter, you also (as well as the main level 3 perk) have the level 1 perk increased to 15%, then 20% at level 6, 30% at level 10, and the full 40% at level 15. That way, you wouldn't be locked out of any profession abilities by your initial choice, but would have to put in a substantial investment to get the full version of the level 1 skills.

  6. While I like all of these level upgrades, I can't help but think that we could do with some more 'specific' bonuses that make Fighter different from other classes. I think the bonuses that Commoner has work well for the class because they are straightford (like the Commoner!), but for Fighter, we could have more specific skills.

    So what is a fighter, and how does he play? We want fighters to use lots of different armour. We want fighters to use lots of different weapons, instead of just one type like swords or axes. Fighters should have a lot of abilities that make them powerful in melee. Fighters should have some perks that make melee more "interesting" (because they will be doing a lot of it!). Fighters are survivors - out of all of the classes available, the Fighter is the class that should survive damage the longest.

    Some ideas for inspiration! (Some of these abilities might fit some other classes you are thinking of better than fighter)

    - Against attacks that ignore PV, Fighters still count as having 10% PV (at level X), 20% PV (at level Y)
    - Indomitable: Each consecutive hit against a specific enemy makes the next attack more likely to hit (until you miss/attack a different enemy/do any other action that is not attacking)
    - New tactic(in the tactics menu with agressive/careful etc): Defensive spin. You can't move or attack, you can only wait. Everytime you are attacked by an enemy, you automatically counterattack, up to a certain amount (maybe a skill check lets you counterattack X number of times). So an enemy with 5 attacks you can counterattack 5 times, three enemies with 1 attack you counter each one once, etc. With this tactic, you get the DV bonus of 'careful', but without the 'to hit' penalty.
    - If you are shot by an enemy in front of you, an extra 10% chance that you will not get hit (because you hit the arrow out of the air with your weapon!)
    - Upon reaching a certain level, your skill with every weapon type increases by X ('X' is the amount to bring your weapon skill from lvl 0 to lvl 3). Additionally, everytime you gain some weapon skill with the weapon you are using, small chance to get +1 weapon experience to an extra, random weapon skill (to demonstrate fighters being masters of all weapons)
    - When using a weapon that has a weapon skill that is NOT the highest weapon skill that the fighter has at the moment (eg my sword weapon skill is 5, my axe weapon skill is 3, and I'm using an axe at the moment), you earn slightly more weapon skill xp than usual.
    - When at <30% health, take 20% less damage from all sources.
    - the tactics "aggressive/very aggressive/berserk" now give you a minor critical chance bonus. The tactics "careful/very careful/cowardly" now give you a minor magic resistance bonus.
    - Lunge: When using the tactics "aggressive/very aggressive/beserk" this will now cause you to automatically get a free strike against an enemy when you move to stand adjacent to them (only once!)
    - An enemy that is not hitting you, or damaging you has a higher chance of "giving up" and becoming non-hostile and walking away.

    - The attacks of a fighter will now have a minor chance to cause additional effects! The effects also give a special message when activated (eg "You feint the goblin and put him off balance, as well as slightly wounding him!" These include:
    :Hamstring: Enemy suffers movement penalty
    :Feint: This attack does 1/4 damage - but your next two attacks will automatically hit
    :Bleeding: Fighters have a higher chance than usual of causing bleeding
    :Gutting: Very heavy bleeding!
    :Bash: if holding a shield, free bonus attack with the shield
    :Armour Break: PV Penalty
    :Disarm: Enemy drops weapon
    :Break arm/leg: DV or to hit penalty

  7. Also just in general with Multiclassing and gaining abilities, a couple of things I was thinking:

    - When multiclassing, there should be some "in game" restrictions on what you can multiclass to. Ideally for example, if you want to multiclass to Wizard, you should first find a master or archmage who will teach you (or even a demon!) - this lets you now have the option of multiclassing to Wizard. If you want to be a Cleric/Paladin, you need to join a clergy and have some piety, if you want to be a druid, you have to find a druid circle (or even find a dryad or unicorn) who will train you, etc. Some classes like Bard and Commoner don't have any restrictions and you can multiclass to them anytime.

    - For professional abilites, I am more in favor of lots of little professional ability gains instead of a few massive gains. For example, instead of:
    Level 28: +6 to strength
    I would prefer
    Level 25: +3 to strength
    Level 28: +3 to strength
    I think that way it would make level ups much more interesting, because something cool almost always happens every time you level up!

  8. @Lyle:
    Abilities like Defensive Spin, Lunge or tactics settings bonuses can be thoroughly abused, tactics settings could already be thoroughly abused in ADOM. But I got somewhat inspired by the idea nonetheless.
    Randomizing attacks is bad.. Nothing is worse than dying to, like, a dragon - because you were going toe to toe and your last/penultimate attack was a feint, so you don't kill it and it finishes you off. Or breaking that wonderful piece of armour you were counting on getting from a would be corpse.

    Now to the more interesting stuff, about the post itself. Stat boosts do look dull, especially at levels past 20, at least if stats are as easily pumped up as in ADOM. It's hard to invent many things new and shiny, but here's my go at the abilities guidelines for now:
    1. Instead of random attacks, I remember there being a special key in ADOM to invoke monks' circular kick and that's probably used for the Powerful Bash/Blazing Whirlwind as well? Implementing the classic quartet of Feint (substraction from opponent's DV for a few turns, may be based on a contested roll?), Disarm (obviously needs a contested roll - a very strong ability against anyone wielding a weapon they specialize in), Bullrush (move enemy 1 sq) and maybe even Trip...
    ..2. Along with a new condition - Lying Down - which requires a turn to stand up, may be hotkeyed to lay down/stand up with +DV against ranged and -DV against melee, as well as no penalty for ranged attacks and an unwanted penalty on melee to-hit when lying down. WotC can sue me how, ahha-ha.
    3. Some of the more ADOM-based abilities would be a passive chance to daze/stun at Berserk setting, and cause bleeding at Coward, representing thundering blows and tiring the enemy out in defense. Would be nice if things scaled as well, but perhaps it's better not to make things as compticated as two-weapon fighting in ADOM.
    4. I'll try to think of something useful today, for I'd like to contribute something of my own rather than revising others' work, sadface smiley here.

  9. Forgot to mention the possibility of weapon group specific bonses, although I have no idea of how to implement them.
    Another thing to do with weapon groups would be giving a bonus to weapon groups that reached a certain level, for example a static bonus in damage for longswords, DV bonus in light blades/polearms, a random (extra dice) bonus damage for axes/mauls/non-precision swing-to-kill weapons, tripping/disarming bonuses on scythes and whips, etc. That way the fighter profession may be less burdened with "super maneuvers", which'd better be left for monks/barbarians/other meleers, and focus on what fighters are about - weapons expertise.

  10. @Ksennie, a couple of things to consider with defense spin/lunge etc -
    Defense Spin
    - You forfeit your attack, and you're always attacking second, after you get attacked - this is a bad strategy with stat-draining enemies, dragons/liches that decide to cast a spell on you instead of meleeing you etc
    - Because you can't move while in defense spin mode, that means you have to manually walk up to an enemy, set the tactic, and wait - this adds to the hassle factor, which makes it less likely to be used.

    - While lunge may seem overly powerful, would it still be overly powerful if it was unlocked at Fighter lvl 80? (And that you couldn't repeatedly lunge the same enemy, of course)

    In general, you say these are abusable, but really, they're supposed to be! Someone who specialises in close combat should get good at close combat, and there are always enemies that can counter your strengths. Defense spin and extra tactics bonuses don't make you immortal - come across a tough enough melee enemy, and you will still die D: Nevermind coming across an archmage, master archer, or non-melee based enemies.

    But I guess maybe spin might be better suited to a monk, and lunge better suited to a barbarian.

    About feint, I do agree with you - maybe if feint was actually for attacks that miss. If you attack an enemy but miss, there's a small chance that the miss becomes a feint instead (you didn't miss because you were weak, you missed on purpose!), still causing no damage, but your next attack has a 100% chance to hit.

    Same sort of thing with Armour Break - there's no way I'd play Fighter if there was a chance I'd accidently damage a powerful piece of armour! But perhaps if it destroyed natural armour instead - splitting the shell of a giant tortise enemy, shattering the armoured scales of a giant lizard.

    I do like the idea of bonuses for levelling up different weapon skills. It would be nice if there was some sort of extra benefit for an axe-user who had mauls lvl 7 and axes lvl 7, as opposed to an axe-user who just had axes lvl 9. I would like to see that.

  11. @Lyle
    >Defense Spin, You forfeit your attack..
    Nobody in their right mind will use defensive spin at 30+ levels, at least in adom. Kiting is strictly better against a single target, and standing in one place means you have to be sure not to get surrounded.

    >Lunge.. Fighter lvl 80.. couldn't repeatedly lunge the same enemy..
    It's not a great ability for a 80th level straight fighter then. Better give 1-2 "free" attacks when first hitting a monster, and even that will result in the game keeping tracks of unnessessary "hit - not-hit" markers. Making every 5th attack double seems like great for 80-100 abilities rather than lunge, it's +20% damage output, but seriously, straight fighters are underpowered due to lack of natural spellcasting-related abilities.

    >abusable... they're supposed to be!
    Lunge will not make you good at free combat, it'll only give you the advantage of a free first strike. And it's not even that powerful to cherish as a unique strike.

    > spin suited to a monk, lunge suited to barbarian.
    Well, rename defensive spin to Riposte and you got an ability for rougey-swashbuckley professions.

    >About feint
    Do you really think that people won't go into Coward+defensive spin (to loose to-hit) and wait for the miss that feinted? Just to switch to Berserk after that? i don't think giving something as powerful as an autohit is a good idea, especially since they'll be fighter NPCs, I'm sure of it, and they surely will start missing PCs at some level, potentially turning high DV/PV into a disadvantage.

    >Armour Break
    Why not just make feint reduce DV for N rounds and Armor Break reduce PV for some rounds as well?

  12. [For some reason, OpenID commenting isn't working for me right now. I am the same rho who commented upthread.]

    How about:

    When fighting against an opponent with a given weapon type, you gain half of your own weapon skill bonuses with that weapon.


    I am a legendary fighter and have attained level 15 mastery of the sword, using it as my preferred weapon. However, I am also extremely proficient with an axe, having reached level 12 in its use. I am fighting a fierce orc warchief who is attacking me with an axe. Because of my skill with the axe, I am better able to predict his moves and to counter them, giving me bonuses while I fight him. As such, my weapon skill bonuses would be equal to my normal bonuses from my swordmastery PLUS half of the bonuses that I'd get if I were wielding an axe.

    I think what I'd ideally want for a fighter would be a character where I'd want to change my weapon and my tactics a lot. Instead of just having "this is my best weapon, I will use it against everything", have various bonuses which only apply to different weapons. So, maybe a high bonus to hit with swords, a bonus to crit with axes, armor penetration with hammers, and so on. So, if I'm fighting a difficult monster, I should be thinking "OK, what's this monster's strength? Right, now what tools do I have to counter that strength?" and then picking my weapon accordingly. So I might want to switch to a hammer while fighting a moloch, but a sword would be much more useful against a quickling.

    Additional perks that could encourage that sort of play style:

    * The ability to find more magic weapons (prefixes and suffixes). This would increase the likelihood of having a good weapon of more types. This can be explained as familiarity with weapons making it easier for a fighter to notice a weapon's magic that others might miss.
    * The ability to switch weapons (and possibly other inventory slots) instantly. Switching weapons is a much more appealing prospect if you don't have to spend a turn being eaten by a dragon to do it.
    * The ability to unequip cursed weapons. This would mean it would be more rewarding to try out new and untried weapons, as you know there's no danger of you accidentally being stuck with a cursed broken rusty scalpel of weakness.