Today I'd like to discuss a very simple question: Was it a good idea to combine the '>' and '<' commands into one that allows you to just change your current location to another one?
My line of reasoning behind the change was that it removes the need to memorize which kind of command invokes which change (up/down or in/out).
Since I introduced that change I got quite a number of bug reports describing the exact change.
I got quite a number of differentiated points like "by accidentally resign the key twice you can maneuver yourself into dangerous situations in a dungeon.
All this seems to indicate that my line of reasoning ("one key to memorize instead of two") simple was wrong. Before changing something I'd like to hear opinions from as many people as possible for the final time and then I'll decide on a change. Please let me hear your voices and opinions!
I personally liked the change, despite being and old-school ADOM (and other roguelikes) player. I now always press "<" for everything, and in fact when playing ADOM I I have found myself pressing "<" for everything.ReplyDelete
I see how this could cause people trouble though, if someone is careless and presses "<" twice when fleeing from monsters.
I think a good solution would be to have two commands internally (go up and go down), but have each of them linked to both keys in the default key mappings. Then, users wanting the old behaviour could edit the key mappings to have "<" for up and ">" for down.
However I'm not using the "navigate to stairs" commands (< and > without being on a stairs square) much...ReplyDelete
I think for people that use those commands, the current setup is probably quite annoying, so maybe they are right and the change should be reverted altogether, even though it's a pity because it has its advantages.
Please, keep it as it is :)ReplyDelete
I generally prefer it the old way, going to the wrong stairs but hitting the right button quickly tells me im in the wrong place, plus hitting the same button twice doesn't send me back the way I came.ReplyDelete
I can see the advantages of the single key however, so I'd not object, I'll just have to be more perceptive during play from now on =)
I liked it the old way for the two reasons stated above. Still I understand that as simple as it seems to me to have the two keys you want to make the keymapping as simple as you can without changing the enormous depth of action available. If you could allow people to toggle between options either through the keymap or a "toggle up/down stair key" option then I for one would be grateful. Otherwise you might as well leave it as it is.ReplyDelete
I prefer the old way. It's too easy mess up and accidentally descend/ascend stairs. Besides, the commands are REALLY easy to memorise - '<' for an arrow pointing backwards (towards the exit, which is generally upstairs), '>' for an arrow pointing forwards (further into the dungeon, usually downstairs). Furthermore if you go to the wrong stairs, nothing would happen if you try to go to the intended direction. Lastly, if you happen to be on the upstairs, pressing '>' for taking a step toward the downstairs will take you up instead!ReplyDelete
So yeah, make it the old way, please.
Switch it back to the old way if it's causing people to accidentally end up in the wrong places. The benefit in convenience is EXREMELY minor. After all, even if you get the choice of > or < wrong, the ensuing confusion rarely lasts even a second.ReplyDelete
I've noticed myself that "There are no stairs leading upwards here." and such was a good way to realize I've been going the wrong way.
Naturally, you should stick this on your list for things to accommodate once you get around to adding freely configurable controls, so people who trust themselves not to mess up can enjoy the convenience.ReplyDelete
That. If someone's feeling lucky, of course they should be able to use it the new way. But I'm feeling paranoid when playing ADoM and would rather have that on separate keys.Delete
I've pretty much agreed with Silfir on anything he says, and this is no exception. As far as the key map goes, I was very happy with the original mapping, and would very much like to see it implemented again in its full glory.Delete
Also, just because I've no idea where else to add this feedback....ReplyDelete
Can the choose a name part of making a new character come *after* choosing what race/class they are etc? I pretty much always go random and its impossible to think up a befitting name for a random character.
I can't find the old 'N'ame command as I don't think its been added yet, so I can't just rename myself afterwards either.
I know this is a *really* trivial thing... but I like to have names that match the characters for the highscores if nothing else, and my recent string of deaths has drawn this back to my attention.
I would prefer the change. I really would. Not that it's hard to memorize, but because it's just better. Unless you start adding staircases that go up AND down in the same square, then yeah.ReplyDelete
How is it "just" better if people are ending up in places they don't want to because of it? Minimizing the potential for keypress mishaps is just another aspect of UI design, for as long as it's intended for human use.ReplyDelete
Considering the need for two buttons (shift+<) for going downstairs and only one for going upstairs on the finnish keyboard I absolutely prefer the new way. Not a big thing, but an improvement none the less.ReplyDelete
Hmm. Could've sworn I posted this earlier, but oh well:ReplyDelete
I'd prefer the old system of < and > being different, especially in conjunction with the auto-pathing. I find myself just holding down < to quickly zip out of a dungeon, only to flip-flop back and forth between the bottom two floors. At least, I remember that happening in the last version I played; it might be a few back.
If I recall correctly, even with the old style you still have to press space or something to get past the "You climb up the stairs..." text. I don't see flip-flops being a possibility.Delete
Just tested it in the current version [0.2.3] and you do indeed just flipflop. No additional keypresses required, unless I somehow disabled them.Delete
I don't really mind having two keys < and >. It was just so logical that one sends you deeper into a dungeon and the other towards the surface. There's also simplicity in that you stand on the symbol ">" and you also press ">" (and vice versa). They're just really easy to remember. If it was somethingmore random like press "u" for up and "ctrl+d" for down I'd suggest amalgamating them, but I always thought < and > were fine.ReplyDelete
I prefer the old way. The two keys < and > are so similar, it's almost madness NOT to give them similar (and dual) functionality. If, say, < were "ascend/descend" and > were (I dunno) "throw weapon", I'd *constantly* be accidentally throwing my weapon when I meant to climb a stair! I don't think collapsing < and > into one key really even saves keys in the UI really, because to most people, those two keys are really more like just one key anyway. But like other people have said, making it customizable is always good.ReplyDelete
I'm also pro-classic style of both < and >. Al-Khwarizmi is onto something with the two internal commands that are the same by default... though I would prefer them to be different by default with the option to change them to the same keys.ReplyDelete
Easy fix for accidental double tap of < or >, just have an 'are you sure' prompt appear if someone ascends or descends then seemingly tries to do the same move on their very next turn.ReplyDelete
I'm all for a generic use map object that includes going up/down stairs. Whilst also have specific hot keys if you so choose to use them.
Going back to the old controls seems more sensible to me than adding a confirmation prompt. Nobody likes those.ReplyDelete
"Are you sure?" = automatic "(Y)es"ReplyDelete
The best way is to be able to configure the keyboard commands.
Cherished simplification: w+> to speed to the down stairsReplyDelete
w+< to speed to the up stairs
Cursed change: same key for up/down
I think the only thing that would be more annoying would be a single key for movement, which defaulted to movement east, but prompted to determine if the character wished to move in a different direction.
I'm all for simplification of commands; Brogue is the classic example of using (A)pply for staves, potions, scrolls, and food. But with < and >, it's hard to argue that it's difficult to memorize which is which when they match the symbol on the game screen exactly. It's not like just using < is intuitive (ahh, this is obviously the "go upstairs" key...), so once you've realized that the < key maps to a < upstairs space on the map, how hard is it really to apply the pattern to >'s?ReplyDelete
On a side note, while appealing to new players with simplification is a good thing, using both < and > is standard to almost every other roguelike in existence... including the previous ADoM. That speaks to sticking with the two key approach even were it not for the "walk to staircase" confusion.